tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post1911573712319391174..comments2023-06-26T15:29:14.498+01:00Comments on Liberator’s blog: The Rise and Fall of Economic LiberalismGareth Eppshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18198368251505541728noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post-84015756031756475082013-03-17T23:44:51.996+00:002013-03-17T23:44:51.996+00:00Tony - Thanks for your kind comments and I hope yo...Tony - Thanks for your kind comments and I hope you got round to drinking a cup of hot coffee!<br /><br />Regarding my "historical sweep", I accept that events were not quite as simple as I suggested but my general point remains valid, that the Liberal Party was not wholly or even mainly economic liberal up to the advent of the SDP. Far from it.<br /><br />I have even read false historical accounts in which, during the 1980s, opposition within the Liberal Party to the merger was led by economic liberals, while the left of the party supported merger! Those of us who were actually there at the time know otherwise.<br /><br />Maybe the reason they are called 'economic' liberals is that they are economical with the truth.Simon Titleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04121239127665359267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post-58351259487950499412013-03-17T22:44:47.845+00:002013-03-17T22:44:47.845+00:00Comment from Tony Greaves:
Simon - this is a bril...Comment from Tony Greaves:<br /><br />Simon - this is a brilliant analysis of where we are now. I had already made a cup of coffee but it's gone cold!<br /><br />By the way (Simon McG), the tax cuts are not actually for the lowest paid. Already (before the next round) there are over 4 million people in work who earn too little to pay income tax and, with every increase in the personal allowance, this number rises (next year 4.8 million). This is not to oppose the policy but to require an extra way of providing the same benefit to the lowest paid workers.<br /><br />On your historical sweep, Simon, it wasn't quite as simple as you suggest. I don't think the Liberal Party as a whole was converted to the New Liberalism by the turn of the 20th century though the work of the Liberal Governments helped. But even in the 1920s, the constant splits among Liberal MPs in parliamentary votes (even among the Wee Frees and then in the reunited party after 1923) were largely based on economic attitudes. The Lloyd George/Keynes policies for the 1929 election were definitive, but then the big split between Liberals and Liberal Nationals in 1931 was all about economic policy. The battles within the party were still going on in the 1950s, which is when the right-wing free marketeers led by such as Oliver Smedley and Edward Martell were finally routed, with a leading role taken by the Radical Reform Group of Desmond Banks and others, and the crucial part played by Jo Grimond in getting in people to develop new policy. It's a pity we are having to fight these battles all over again with people who are (like Martell & Co) really just trying to use the party for their own ideological purposes.<br /><br />Carl - the point about markets is that they are a tool and not a master. It's the job of government to regulate them and make sure they do not run out of control, not to hand over control to them, which only ever results in increasing distortion through corporate oligopoly.<br /><br />Tony Greaves<br />Simon Titleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04121239127665359267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post-56502367387022168132013-03-17T20:03:12.887+00:002013-03-17T20:03:12.887+00:00So... Liberal Reform believe markets are not alway...So... Liberal Reform believe markets are not always an answer but an option that need to be considered<br />and Social Liberals are not opposed to the market but don't believe they are the be all and end all<br /><br />Well, there is a massive ideological wedge there!Carl Minnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02063631234472917655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post-61994476711293014392013-03-17T18:21:09.336+00:002013-03-17T18:21:09.336+00:00A little patronising about Social Democracy. Afte...A little patronising about Social Democracy. After all Hobhouse was happy to recognise the closeness of his ideas to socialism...KelvinKidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01118042006400401585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post-64829340789785701322013-03-17T16:03:33.441+00:002013-03-17T16:03:33.441+00:00You have to admit that at least some of Liberal Re...You have to admit that at least some of Liberal Reform’s members – notably the young hotheads who have commented on this blog previously – do rather make a fetish of markets.<br /><br />Social liberals are not opposed to markets – it’s just we don’t think they are the be-all and end-all, we don’t think they are an inviolable force of nature but a social construct, and therefore we don’t believe that the operation of a market sanctifies its outcomes.<br /><br />In any case, Simon, what are <i>you</i> going to do when the orthodoxy ceases to be orthodox? It will happen soon so you will need an answer.Simon Titleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04121239127665359267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2277746591174465580.post-20630122767418551922013-03-17T13:03:32.348+00:002013-03-17T13:03:32.348+00:00I really enjoyed this piece,one of your most enter...I really enjoyed this piece,one of your most entertaining for ages.<br />It is good to be reminded that the left of the party opposed the policy of tax cuts for the lowest paid. I hadn't realised that it was this that led to the setting up of the SLF. It is of course no surprise that many of those in the Party who take the position that the state is better at deciding how to spend money than individuals should oppose lower taxation. <br /><br />But you mis-characterise the views of Liberal Reform on markets. I don't think it is our position that markets are always the answer but they are an option which need to be considered. The does put us at odd with those in the Party who think state provision (in for example healthcare) should be the only option to be considered. <br /><br /><br />Simon McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13260109849189903819noreply@blogger.com